tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25640206.post116136482989973977..comments2023-05-30T02:34:51.780-05:00Comments on FullyPersuadedBaptist: Should Christians Use Intoxicating Beverages? Part TwoJames McEntirehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18076786630641849452noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25640206.post-1161713475903825322006-10-24T13:11:00.000-05:002006-10-24T13:11:00.000-05:00Also, thank you for all of the references to scrip...Also, thank you for all of the references to scripture. I didn't realize how often scripture cautions us regarding alcohol.Samanthahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08915855734482595293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25640206.post-1161713284408272052006-10-24T13:08:00.000-05:002006-10-24T13:08:00.000-05:00I really enjoyed your posts on this subject. This...I really enjoyed your posts on this subject. This is something Christians rarely discuss openly.<BR/><BR/>I grew up with an alcoholic parent so, for me, there is no question that consuming alcohol is wrong. I do know many Christians who drink socially, and it never sits well with me. I've seen first-hand how destructive alcohol addiction can become. It always worries me when people I love say they only drink occasionally, because drinking can so easily become a habit.<BR/><BR/>Also, I think that this is a matter of the heart. What is the motivation for drinking? I think this could be part of what makes it a sin. When I see how the world views alcohol, it gives me the extra encouragement to abstain from drinking. We should be set apart from the world, not blending in.Samanthahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08915855734482595293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25640206.post-1161705745298926282006-10-24T11:02:00.000-05:002006-10-24T11:02:00.000-05:00Eric,It was my pleasure and thank you for reading ...Eric,<BR/><BR/>It was my pleasure and thank you for reading here. Yes, I did read the articles to which you linked and found them interesting. Thank you for linking to my posts.James McEntirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18076786630641849452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25640206.post-1161704272849984872006-10-24T10:37:00.000-05:002006-10-24T10:37:00.000-05:00Thank you for the discussion, James. And thank yo...Thank you for the discussion, James. And thank you for visiting my blog, and the articles I linked to from there. I appreciate your willingness to expose yourself to other points of view.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13313782518736452219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25640206.post-1161648940770439232006-10-23T19:15:00.000-05:002006-10-23T19:15:00.000-05:00The following comment was provided by heather_for_...<I>The following comment was provided by heather_for_dummies on another post. I am moving it here so that it can be read in the context of this discussion.<BR/><BR/>fullypersuadedbaptist</I><BR/><BR/>I hope it's ok to bring up an old subject. I came in a little late, but I wanted to comment on the Christians and Alcohol discussion...<BR/><BR/>"There was in Bible times no process available for preventing fermentation and preserving non-alcoholic grape juices. Our processes today depend on pasteurization and refrigeration. Without pasteurization even refrigerated grape juice will eventually ferment. Without refrigeration pasteurized grape juice will very quickly spoil. The only way to get unfermented "wine" in Bible times was to eat grapes fresh from the vine. Whenever and wherever a beverage was produced from grapes it was an alcoholic beverage."<BR/><BR/>This was posted by Eric. What he fails to mention is that grape juice doesn't turn into wine all by its self. There has to be a carefully controlled environment - with sugars added, and certain temperatures to actually procude alcoholic wine. <BR/>If you let grape juice spoil, it turns to vinegar, not alcohol. <BR/><BR/>Also, I find it poor logic to say that because there was no refrigeration, there could be no grape juice. There was a time in our country when people used cellars to keep things cool and unspoiled for short amounts of time. Is it possible that in Bible times, grape juice was enjoyed quickly after it was made instead of being preserved for long periods of time? To presume that did not happen is to read much into the Bible that is not there. <BR/><BR/>October 23, 2006 6:55 PMJames McEntirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18076786630641849452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25640206.post-1161627746221181462006-10-23T13:22:00.000-05:002006-10-23T13:22:00.000-05:00That false doctrine (like all false doctrine) is h...<B>That false doctrine (like all false doctrine) is highly dangerous and destructive to men’s souls, even if it does sometimes promote the well-being of their minds and bodies and families.</B><BR/><BR/>In searching for a point of agreement I found this statement.<BR/><BR/>I agree with the principle. We would disagree on a wide range of topics as to what is false doctrine and what is truth. Neverthelss I agree that "false doctrine is highly destructive to men's souls even if it does sometimes promote the well-being of their minds and bodies and familes."<BR/><BR/><B>It can mean whatever we want it to mean.</B><BR/><BR/>I don't think anyone is arguing for this. To say that the Bible word for wine includes everything from the cluster to alcoholic beverages and that the context determines the meaning is not saying the word can mean anything???<BR/><BR/>Your refusal to accept the existence of non-alcoholic wine is indefensible. There are companies that produce it today and market it as such. Are you sure these companies are "grape juice makers in the temperance movement"?<BR/><BR/>Sometimes ambiguity is simply a lack of light and understanding?? Things that we don't understand we consider ambiguous. Doesn't necessarily mean that it is ambiguous.<BR/><BR/>I'm not even sure it is ambiguous to you for you clearly state the position in your own comment. It is not that it is ambiguous it is that you don't agree. It is simple to understand.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for reading and commenting.James McEntirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18076786630641849452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25640206.post-1161624436114558632006-10-23T12:27:00.000-05:002006-10-23T12:27:00.000-05:00Where do you understand my position to be creating...<I>Where do you understand my position to be creating ambiguity?</I><BR/><BR/>Wine is by definition an alcoholic beverage. When we take "wine" to mean alcoholic beverages and/or non-alcoholic beverages, then we have ambiguity as to the meaning of the word. It can mean whatever we want it to mean. When Scripture presents "wine" in a neutral or positive light we can say that this is "non-alcoholic wine" (an oxymoron). When Scripture presents "wine" in a negative light we can say this is "alcoholic wine" (a redundancy). So this ambiguity, once established, is useful for the promotion of false doctrine – namely that it is always a sin to drink alcohol. That false doctrine (like all false doctrine) is highly dangerous and destructive to men’s souls, even if it does sometimes promote the well-being of their minds and bodies and families.<BR/><BR/>To describe a beverage using the term "non-alcoholic wine" is an oxymoron. It remains an oxymoron no matter how frequently it gets picked up and used by grape juice producers within the temperance movement.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13313782518736452219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25640206.post-1161618787058407092006-10-23T10:53:00.000-05:002006-10-23T10:53:00.000-05:00Eric,I'm not sure I agree with the conclusion that...Eric,<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure I agree with the conclusion that a polemic cannot be scholarly or authoratative??<BR/><BR/>It seems to me that even when people write with the stated purpose of objectivity that there will be at least two sides, usually in opposition concerning the issue addressed.<BR/><BR/>I suppose that "propaganda" and "ambiguity" are in the eyes of the beholder.<BR/><BR/>Where you understand my position to be creating ambiguity I see the issue as clear as the noon-day sun???<BR/><BR/>The word wine is used for non-alcoholic beverage.<BR/><BR/>http://www.arielvineyards.com/about_faq.html#1James McEntirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18076786630641849452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25640206.post-1161616683715932062006-10-23T10:18:00.000-05:002006-10-23T10:18:00.000-05:00I'm sorry for the miscommunication. I wasn't sayi...I'm sorry for the miscommunication. I wasn't saying that your particular church necessarily calls the grape juice, "wine." The dictionary tells us, in general, that only in the context of churches using a substitute in the place of Communion wine is something other than an alcoholic beverage sometimes called "wine."<BR/><BR/>In the second sentence of his introduction William Patton tells us plainly that his aim is to <I>"arrange the facts"</I> so as to produce the <I>"firmest conviction."</I> In other words, the book is a propaganda piece from a Temperance crusader, and doesn't pretend to be anything else. Reading a polemic text as if it were scholarly or authoritative is not wise. I do not intend to read the entire book, but if so, I will not put the same faith in it as you do; because the author plainly warns us it is <I><B>not</B></I> his aim to be objective or dispassionate.<BR/><BR/>William Patton is borrowing a page from the playbook of liberal "scholars." Where the Bible says something you disagree with, simply explain why and how the text is ambiguous on the subject. In this case "wine" doesn't mean simply wine, it also might mean non-alcoholic, unfermented juice. Thus we are free to re-interpret wisdom passages, warning us against the dangers of alcohol, as if they were law passages, commanding us to abstain from alcohol. Because of the freedom we find in ambiguity, there is no longer any conflict with passages speaking well of wine consumption. Those passages are mostly just talking about this non-wine "wine" stuff.<BR/><BR/>It's kind of ironic the way we can use ambiguity in the text to chase away ambiguity on the issue. But the end does not justify the means. This finding of ambiguity produces a distortion of God's Word. Thus it is a wrong use of God's Word, even if it sometimes serves to mitigate the evils of alcoholism and drunkenness.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13313782518736452219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25640206.post-1161611718274026272006-10-23T08:55:00.000-05:002006-10-23T08:55:00.000-05:00Those churches still call that stuff "wine" knowin...<B>Those churches still call that stuff "wine" knowing full well that it isn't.</B><BR/><BR/>We do not call it wine, we call it grape juice.<BR/><BR/>If I am not mistaken the word wine is not used in relation to the Lord's Supper. It is always "the cup", "the fruit of the vine", etc....<BR/><BR/><B>There was in Bible times no process available for preventing fermentation and preserving non-alcoholic grape juices.</B><BR/><BR/>This statement can be disputed. Have you read Patton's book???James McEntirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18076786630641849452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25640206.post-1161583430431808772006-10-23T01:03:00.000-05:002006-10-23T01:03:00.000-05:00When the Bible speaks of wine, it is always speaki...When the Bible speaks of wine, it is always speaking of an intoxicating beverage. If there is no reason to believe these passages are refering to an intoxicating beverage, then there is no reason to use the word "wine." That would be a mistranslation, because the English word universally refers to an intoxicating drink, except where churches substitute grape juice for wine in Communion. Those churches still call that stuff "wine" knowing full well that it isn't. But apart from that there is no other circumstance in ordinary usage where a non-alcoholic beverage is called "wine."<BR/><BR/>http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/wine<BR/><BR/>There was in Bible times no process available for preventing fermentation and preserving non-alcoholic grape juices. Our processes today depend on pasteurization and refrigeration. Without pasteurization even refrigerated grape juice will eventually ferment. Without refrigeration pasteurized grape juice will very quickly spoil. The only way to get unfermented "wine" in Bible times was to eat grapes fresh from the vine. Whenever and wherever a beverage was produced from grapes it was an alcoholic beverage.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13313782518736452219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25640206.post-1161384236425829222006-10-20T17:43:00.000-05:002006-10-20T17:43:00.000-05:00mrs.b.,Also, thanks for adding my posts to your si...mrs.b.,<BR/><BR/>Also, thanks for adding my posts to your side bar! The added exposure is greatly appreciated.James McEntirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18076786630641849452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25640206.post-1161383911012462402006-10-20T17:38:00.000-05:002006-10-20T17:38:00.000-05:00mrs.b.,My wife has expressed interest in starting ...mrs.b.,<BR/><BR/>My wife has expressed interest in starting a blog but does not feel that she has the time. Maybe she would be more apt to do it if I let her use my space and she did not feel the pressure of keeping the space moving.<BR/><BR/>I will certainly ask her about that. She is certainly worth being heard from for she is a woman of immense character, sober mind, and spiritual discernment. In fact the more I think about it the more I like the idea. We could be partners in crime!:-)<BR/><BR/>Fair warning she is resolved, resolute one might even say fullypersuaded!James McEntirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18076786630641849452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25640206.post-1161372862030450152006-10-20T14:34:00.000-05:002006-10-20T14:34:00.000-05:00LOL!I added these two posts to my side bar.You kno...LOL!<BR/><BR/>I added these two posts to my side bar.<BR/><BR/>You know I think it would nice if every once in awhile your wife wrote a post for ladies or something. --Just a thought!<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/>~Mrs.BCherish the Homehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09334718202170470399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25640206.post-1161369122178779962006-10-20T13:32:00.000-05:002006-10-20T13:32:00.000-05:00mrs.b.,so the person would serve his best first be...mrs.b.,<BR/><BR/><B>so the person would serve his best first before the tastebuds were dulled so that the taste would be fully appreciated.</B><BR/><BR/>If I understand what you are saying here I think this is exactly the point. The longer they would drink the wine they less they would appreciate it so the best was served first.<BR/><BR/>Oh, and you are more than welcome to be dogmatic here, even if you disagree. Uhmmm.........of course I am never dogmatic?? I prefer to think of it as firmly resolved, resolute, even fullypersuaded!<BR/><BR/>Thanks for continuing to read and comment.James McEntirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18076786630641849452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25640206.post-1161366887878238602006-10-20T12:54:00.000-05:002006-10-20T12:54:00.000-05:00Some thoughts I had on the passage in John 2.....P...Some thoughts I had on the passage in John 2.....<BR/><BR/>Perhaps it is meant that they served the 'good wine' so that they could appreciate it more fully. In fine dining restaurants they often serve sorbet between courses to cleanse the palate(sp?) so that each course can be appreciated to it's fullest.<BR/><BR/>Of course in Bible times this would have been impossible to do so the person would serve his best first before the tastebuds were dulled so that the taste would be fully appreciated.<BR/><BR/>Just a theory, I'm not stating this dogmatically, it was just a thought.Cherish the Homehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09334718202170470399noreply@blogger.com